Boyd K. Packer’s Hateful Conference Talk

Boyd K Packer 2010

At my darkest hours of loneliness when I shuddered in bed as I cried myself to sleep as a young gay Mormon kid, I had no one to turn to or ask for help.

I only knew a heavy self-loathing, fearing that I would disappoint my family and be shunned and hated for who I was and worse, cut off from the only community I knew and eternally damned and kept from the presence of God and all because I had simply been born.

Looking back on my life now I’m not ashamed of the things I did, but of the things I did NOT do. There were times I should have stuck up for the gay kids being picked on, but didn’t, lest my own dark secret be revealed. I think now of the young gay boy, sitting in his white shirt and tie next to his mother during church. He feels alone and lost and sad and prays every night for Heavenly Father to make him better, to take away the feelings. I know this kid because I was him, and I fight now to be the voice I never had.

Boyd K. Packer is wrong and is causing actual harm to actual people. Honest, thoughtful, Christ-like Mormons should be alarmed by this talk.

For those who don’t understand what it’s like to be a gay Mormon kid, just listen to this vicious talk by Boyd. K. Packer, an Apostle in the Mormon Church. I grew up listening to Packer speak, hearing his name and voice and reading his talks in church, seminary and as a missionary. His hostile tone, his total lack of empathy, and his ability to marginalize are just a few of his talents that some within the Mormon community thought would soften as he aged. Not so. He’s as hateful and divisive as ever. (Don’t forget this is the same man who advocated physical violence against gays in a talk called To Young Men Only (also called the “Little Factory Talk.” Read it to find out why.)

“I hit my companion.”

“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.

“But I floored him,” he said.

After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.”

Twice a year, the Saints gather for General Conference to listen to these so-called “men of God” speak. Do not be fooled: the words spoken over the pulpit at General Conference are considered by Mormons to be latter-day revelation, scriptures straight from God’s mouth to your ear through God’s anointed leaders on earth. Yesterday, they heard this:

In a strange way I like this talk only because the true colors of the Church are flying high. No amount of PR ambiguities or half-assed apologies from other General Authorities will smooth this over. Even more shocking is this talk comes just days after so many suicides of young, gay men have been reported in the media. It is talks like this that fuel the self-hatred, self-abnegation and hopelessness that so many people feel. There have been hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of young gay Mormons who have taken their own lives. Boyd K. Packer has blood on his hands because this is a matter of life and death.

Being gay is not a choice. Being gay is not evil. It is who you are and as inherent to you as the color of your eyes. Never let any man (or woman) tell you otherwise. If you are gay, you are a beautiful person the way you are.

Boyd K. Packer is a cranky old man who is not a scientist and not an authority on biology or human development. He’s wrong. He’s wrong. He’s wrong.

Add your name to an open letter from the HRC to Elder Packer here.

166 Comments on "Boyd K. Packer’s Hateful Conference Talk"

  1. Jordan says:

    Thank you for posting.

    I hadn’t seen the video before. It adds a little… something… to the words.



  2. shelby says:

    Thanks for posting. I know being gay is not a choice because who would choose something like that.. I honestly think you are born that way just like for example a handicapped child is born that way.. I think boyd k packer was wrong to say something about it.. Heavenly Father will love you know matter what because we are his sons and daughters, as long as we go to church and live as righteously as we can i think everything will work out.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Thank you Shelby. I think the most important thing to do now is talk about this issue at church and with friends. Gay people are not big, frightening menaces who are determined to destroy the family or civilization. We are normal people who have normal lives who want to be treated equally. Boyd K. Packer is absolutely wrong and his words are hateful and divisive and not Christ-like.

  3. Zoe Weed says:

    Really upset about this talk. Just didnt need to be said at this time. I just feel like after all the prop 8 business and all the negative exposure the church has had we just need to show love and compassion. Even if you dont agree with the whole premise of a gay lifestyle we need to LOVE! I have gay friends and an uncle that was gay I truly believe you are born gay. It is not a choice. In light of all the suicides that have occurred this talk was SOOOO insensitive! The minute he started talking about this subject I knew he had crossed the line. I was talking to a friend of mine about this last night. She isnt LDS…. I am mortified by all of this!!!

    • Seth Anderson says:

      The timing of this talk was repulsive, especially in the wake of so many young kids taking their own lives. Honest Mormons with integrity and Christ-like compassion should be concerned about this talk and its implications. I’m glad to see so many Mormons are upset by it.

    • Becca Packer says:

      I am not wanting to argue with anyone on here but just so you all know the talks that are given at confrence are written around 4-6 months before the actual confrence date. Although it wasnt a very nice talk Boyd had no way of knowing what would be going on in the world at the time he would be giving this talk.
      I would also like to say that although this talk was hateful towards the LGBT community he was stating what the LDS church believes in and he was using his freedom of speech to do it. Just because you do not like what he says doesnt mean you can attack him for saying it.
      personally I believe you love who you love and you cant help what gender or who they are but even nonlds memebers dont believe in gay marriage. and why is it when other religions speak out against it no one attacks them. It wasnt just the LDS church that was agaisnt PROP 8. The catholic church actually asked the LDS church to stand against it for them.
      Brother Packer is not to blame for the suicides that are happening. It is a sad thing that so many people are killing them selves instead of working through and talking about thier problems but it is not Boyd’s fault. He was simply stating what the LDS church believes about marriage. It pretty much says the exact same thing in the bible.
      Dont get me wrong I am not saying that god will not love you if you are gay. I know he will. I know that no matter who you are or what you do he will always love you. As long as you are a good person and live as rightously as possible. Who are we to judge other people?

    • Seth Anderson says:

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I wand to clear up that I did not “attack” Packer as a person. I attacked his ideas and said they were wrong. They are wrong. His ideas cause hurt and harm to people. There have been many many many suicides, many in Utah. Packer knows this, yet he chose to give this talk. Shameful.

  4. Kelli says:

    You are right that Heavenly Father does love all His children. He wants us all to come back to Him. However there must be opposition in all things, including temptations. Just as a straight man is counseled to be virtuous and control his sexual appetites, those who struggle with same-gender attraction are counseled to resist those temptations and remain virtuous.
    You do not understand the Plan of Salvation set forth by Heavenly Father. You also don’t understand how Heavenly Father calls and appoints His Apostles.
    Being “gay” is not something you are “born with”. It may be a temptation you decide to act on and not let Heavenly Father help you through. There are so many amazing ways to get help and find comfort if you are that boy sitting in church feeling lonely. Namely- Jesus Christ, Family, your Bishop and Priesthood Leaders. Heavenly Father would never to anything to contradict His eternal Plan of Salvation and Happiness.
    I am a Mormon and am so extremely grateful to have an apostle who understands more than I do and has said the things our Heavenly Father would have us know. I know the things he said are right and true. God made a man and a woman to procreate the earth and love each other.
    Be offended by my thoughts and the words Boyd K. Packer spoke, but I sustain the leaders of the church as Prophets, Seers and Revelators called by Heavenly Father- and Boyd K. Packer is one of these called men. He is a Special Witness and Servant of the Lord.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Kelli, Thank you for taking the time to comment. I feel that I must reply to some of the things you said.
      People are born gay. All the science says so. Even research coming out of BYU. (Check out and look at a post about Bill Bradshaw, a molecular biologist at BYU, former mission president as well, who recently gave a talk about how all the evidence indicates that being gay is genetic.)
      I think it’s sad you think someone else understands things more than you. I’m sorry your religion has poisoned your mind that way. You are smart enough to know these things.
      The timing of this talk is what is so awful. Just weeks after so many suicides of young gay kids, some as old as 13, he should have said something compassionate and full of wisdom. Instead he said something stupid that is not true. He’s a mean old man.

    • no consequence says:

      Science would point out also that there is no God in heaven and that there is no Christ and if there was a Christ that He is just a man. All things are possible with God. If you do not have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel and the plan of salvation, of course you will not agree with what one of God’s prophets have said. People, with help from the Atonement of Jesus Christ, are overcoming weaknesses, even same sex attraction. It is not easy. It is very hard. It can be done. It is being done. God doesn’t just say, “oh, stop being gay that’s bad!” He says, “I have provided you a way to accomplish the thing that I have commanded.” He never stops loving his children while they are struggling with inappropriate desires, he loves them inspite of temptation and sin and asks us to repent and seek out the Savior for strength to overcome. People since the beginning of time have been rejecting the prophets messages, many have died because they could not handle what was being asked of them. Why then, with a God that never changes would He change today. It is therefore very appropriate that the prophet be firm in reminding God’s children what God’s plan is. Especially during a time when everyone seems so confused about what is morally acceptable. God doesn’t hate his children, ever. Any parent can attest to that. However, he cannot bend his rule even the slightest to accommodate a lifestyle of sin. How could he justify destroying Sodom and Gomorra for their lifestyle choices and be okay with those same lifestyles today. He cannot because he never changes. People can cry and complain all they want to on the news, the radio, internet sites, and even privately but to assume that they will have any affect on the decisions of Deity says a lot about what those people understand about the nature of God. which is to say, not very much. I understand completely the suffering and pain, and sorrow that this brings to a family. I have experienced it in my own family and have had to forgive and try to understand. But, I will never be okay with it because I know that the Lord is not okay with it, as he keeps telling us through revelation and through prophets. I love this family member, completely. And, I love them enough to correct and encourage them to seek the Saviors Atonement no matter what the outcome may be.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      You can believe whatever crazy thing you want. Keep it out of my life and quit trying to force everyone to think like you. If you don’t like gay relationships, don’t have a gay relationship. You have merely asserted your belief in your god. Fine. You have no way to back that up. I don’t believe things for which there is no evidence.
      If there is a god when you stand before her she will say, “Why were you so hateful to people who were different from you?”
      Also, Mormon parents who kick their own children out of their houses, cut them off from communication and their families can not be define as love. Mormon parents do this all the time. That’s why Utah has such a high homeless rate of young people and also why Utah has the highest suicide rate.

  5. Kelli says:

    Please understand something- I know plenty of gay people, and I love them. I think they are wonderful people. I don’t agree with their lifestyle, but I do not hate them. I respect them as people and respect them even more when they don’t try to make excuses for the temptions and challenges they have been given.
    Please also understand that as Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we DO NOT hate gay people. President Packer’s talk is not about hating gay people- and neither was is talk “To Young Men Only”. It seems to me you do not understand what he is truly saying or teaching. We do not agree with the gay lifestyle because it is contrary to the Plan Heavenly Father has set forth.
    Please also understand President Packer was not being rude and is not wrong. Heavenly Father is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow and we do not excuse or apologize for the eternal principles Heavenly Father has given to us. Honest Mormons who understand the gospel in its fullness should be shouting for joy at this talk- families are being destroyed in this country and throughout the world. President Packer is teaching a wonderful and necessary principle about the sacred manner of marriage and family.
    I do hope that you look more into this than just getting upset and frustrated about my comments. I am sorry you felt lonely and out of place. I am sorry you were asked to bear the burden and suffer with these temptaions. I do hope you will find peace in the Atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ and in the love of a Heavenly Father who knows all. A loving Heavenly Father is there for you- please turn to Him to find the comfort and peace that will last forever. You cannot truly find that anywhere else.
    Thank you for considering my thoughts. I wish the very best for you.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      What exactly is a “gay lifestyle”? I’m cautious of people who use terms they can’t define. I’m gay. I go to work, I write, I write books, I play piano, I hang out with my friends, I watch movies, I walk my dogs, I have sex, I go to dinner, I go on vacation sometimes. What do you mean “gay lifestyle”?
      Don’t fool yourself, the Mormon Church hates gays. Just like Brigham Young hated black people. Did you know he legalized slavery in Utah. Do you sustain that as Christ-like? Brigham taught that black people were cursed and lower race. Do you really believe that? Remember, he was a prophet.
      Your assertion that Heavenly Father is the same today, yesterday and forever is flawed. The god of Mormonism changes all the time. You do realize that D&C 132 is still canonized scripture and while the church doesn’t practice polygamy currently, it is still Mormon doctrine and you will be required to have sister wives and a share a man according to the doctrine of your church.
      I’m a lifelong Mormon, a cultural Mormon, a returned missionary, a seminary graduate, and a former gospel doctrine teacher. I guarantee I know more about the Church than you do. I guarantee the church is wrong on this issue.
      You mentioned the destruction of the family. You realize that it was Mormons who contributed money to destroy families in California. Mormons caused harm to innocent children in California. Utah has the highest teen suicide rate. That’s because parent kick out their children and shun them. The Mormon church is responsible for dividing families and causing pain and suffering to many, many of their own members.
      This talk will go down in history as one of the worst Packer ever gave.
      Why are Mormons so intent on forcing everyone to think and be just like them? The key word is force… wasn’t that Satan’s plan? To FORCE everyone to do the “right thing”? Mormons say they believe in agency, but they really don’t.

    • no consequence says:

      This is not a battle of who can recite more scriptures.. Clearly and evidently only those filled with the Holy Spirit can be able to understand the intentions of God. Those who have the gift of the Holy Ghost can and will be able to understand the Lord’s will. It is sad to me that you believe you still understand the doctrine. You may remember it but you do not understand it. What a waste of time on your part to have served a mission and to have been able to study the gospel as you have only to be an apostate. Do you really believe that publicly shunning God’s restored church is going to win you favor with God? You should know better, but sadly you do not. You ask for God’s love and approval but you discredit his servants. You brag about how devoted you “were” to the gospel yet by slandering the Lord’s work you forfeit the Holy Ghost and you deny him and all other times you felt the holy ghost bear testimony to you.. and, you know he did because why would you do all those things such as serve a mission, be a gospel doctrine teacher, graduate seminary? I also served a mission and can honestly tell you that every day, I felt the spirit testitfy to me that what I was teaching was true. I know you must have felt that too. You must realize that the power of Satan is real. And you are doing exactly what he wants you to do. That is, try to destroy God’s word. I am sorry to say, that you already know that outcome as prophesied in the scriptures, that you taught out of. Satan doesn’t win. You might want to reconsider what side you want to be on. And this has nothing to do with the issue of Gay or Lesbianism. You are facilitating Satan’s work. And look at all the comments you are receiving because of it. Do you really want to be a leader in Satan’s army? It is never too late.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      How judgmental of you. And how typically Mormon. It’s no wonder younger kids take their own lives when faced with people like you, pious, self-righteous, arrogant. People like you and Packer have made children feel so hopeless about who they are, trying to force them to change something that cannot be changed.
      Don’t presume that you know me because you read a few of the things I’ve written. Don’t presume to tell me what I am and what I am not. You don’t have that power, and I don’t give it to you.
      My grandparents both work in the Provo Temple and they have been nothing but kind and loving to me and my partner. They are true examples of Christ-like love. Christ spoke of people like you when he said there are people who draw near him with their lips but their hearts are far from him.
      You can call me any name you want if it makes you feel good about yourself.
      I know who I am.

  6. Angie Poll says:

    Thanks for posting Seth. As a heterosexual and a non-practicing mormon, I am embarassed and disgusted with this talk. I started to distance myself from the mormon religion once they began their Prop 8 campaign. I am also extremely disappointed that this talk was given so soon after all the hate crimes and suicides took place. Makes me wonder how many more LDS teens will take their life because of Packer’s speech.

    As I believe I was born with heterosexuality, I also believe you were born with homosexuality. It is not wicked and it is not evil. I’m also glad there were other mormons who questioned it because I have mostly seen supporters which saddens me greatly. Saddens me for the children who felt like you did for being gay. Saddens me that so many follow without questioning. Saddens me that more hate is being created by bringing on judgement.

    Please know that some of us will stand up for you and we will fight for your civil rights, because you are a beautiful person just the way you are!

  7. Angie Poll says:

    And btw, I have been married to my husband for 16 years. We have two kids together. My spouse holds a higher calling in the LDS church. I have never received reprimand from the LDS church and I hold a temple recommend that will expire soon and I will not renew by my own choice. Basically what I’m saying is that I have come to my decisions for no other reason than I believe their stance against homosexuals is WRONG. I am in control of my own mind and beliefs.

    My two children attend church because that’s what I agreed to before I questioned mormon beliefs. I can only hope that while they learn things the LDS church believes in, my acceptance and love by example will be far more important than any doctrine.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Thank you Angie. It’s great to hear stories like yours. I get really frustrated with lots of Mormons, but there are many like you, who are real examples of thoughtful, Christ-like love and compassion. These are the stories that must be told and shared.
      The church has been wrong about so many things in the past and they are wrong about this.
      This talk, given just days after so many suicides of young children (two of them were only 13!) and these are the words he says? Wow….

  8. Mark says:

    This in response to the discussion between Kelli and Seth.

    I first want to say that all of us have the Right and Liberty to Believe in whatever we want to. That is our right. If Boyd K. Packer has these views on Homosexuality, Fine. If Mormons, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Christians and so forth have the view that being gay is wrong, or even that just the behavior is wrong, fine.

    There are a few things regarding this that I find rather disturbing. If someone is in need, and is hurting and is doing the best they can to live “righteously”, wouldn’t it be best to reach out with loving arms and pour out your heart in empathy an compassion towards that individual or group of people? There was no empathy not an ounce in Boyd’s talk… It was very sad. I know a lot of gay people that struggle with their faith and with their sexuality in the LDS church and really all they need is a hug and a voice of encouragement from their leaders and maybe even a little slack.
    Its not easy at all to be gay and LDS and in fact its far more of a challenge than any of the Church membership will ever have to go through. I doubt Joseph Smith or Brigham Young could endure a decree of Life long celibacy…
    Of course actually engaging in any relationship is a “choice” gay or straight. But for a gay man or woman to be actually sexually, emotionally and physically drawn towards some one of the same gender isn’t any more of a choice than a straight dude or chick to be attracted and inherently drawn to someone of the opposite gender. Kelli, when you were a kid, did you make a conscious decision to be sexually attracted to men? Did you consciously say to yourself, “I Kelli, being a daughter of G-d, choose to like penis for verily it is the way?…” I don’t thinks so. Just like the gay dude or gal, in all likely hood did not say to themselves, “oh I KNOW this is a GREAT IDEA Im going to like my same SEX!” Its something that just happened and just is for many gay people. Now, I understand the religious obligations, I grew up in a religiously diverse background, Mormons, Catholics, Jews and all of the faiths have issues with sexuality and its proper place in society. If it is against some ones faith to be against this act then so be it. I cannot contest this more than I would the orthodox Jew who wont sleep on his stomach for free of having a wet dream, or a Catholic who under a papal injunction cannot use a condom…EVER.

    Despite this however, It bothers me that the faithful, “in mormonism and in other faiths” call it the same rules and same kinda thing is a person were straight. You know that whole law of chastity bit that you were taught in sunday school. Gay or straight the rules are the same… Well, okay but do you understand that the implications for a gay man or woman are FAR more severe than for a straight dude or gal?… For example you date a dude Kelli, you might make out, you might get hot and heavy or feelings deep seated natural G-d given feeling arise up in you, as they naturally should but as a good LDS gal you wait till you wed and HURRAY, SEX! ORGASMS! LIFE LONG companionship! YOU get to be with your BEST FRIEND forever!!! Now… the gay dude, in no uncertain terms he gets… WAit for it… JACK SHIT. Yes thats right NOTHING. Masturbation isn’t even permitted under Church and or Gospel law. COMPLETE celibacy is required. NO IFS ands OR BUTS. A man, may by the grace of Jesus be awarded the occasional wet dream in reward for his faithfulness. If he or she is to be a worthy member of the church, they can IN NO way have any kind of sexual outlet what so ever. The only answer is a heterosexual marriage. Now imagine what that would be like?… Think about it Kelli? If you had to make love to a woman and you were commanded to DO IT! ANd ENJOY it! That would be Hellish wouldn’t it?…So even if this faithful brother or sister manages to stay celebate and only masturbate maybe once a week, or once month… guess what? He or she cant take sacrament. They can’t go to the temple they are cut of from the most sacred rituals of the LDS church, if they don’t do EXACTLY and Precisely, as they are instructed. No some out there might say NO NO, its not like that at all… BUT actually it is. That is the harsh reality. As a straight person you may be required to live a number of years without sex or orgasms but eventually if you get married you have that outlet. If you are Gay… YOU ARE REQUIRED TO LIVE A LIFETIME, a LIFETIME of CELIBACY. No, kissing, no touching, no holding hands, no masturbation, no sex of any kind, Unless of course you “change and be straight” then you may have sex in marriage. Could you commit to such a task?… Could you say to yourself or could any of us commit to this? In effect, Neuter our selves?… I doubt that any of the LDS kids would be willing to do this. In fact I know they wouldn’t. Most of the ones I knew growing up hand some kind of sex with some one of the opposite gender before they were married…. Funny they are still members of the LDS church.
    This is a rough path to walk, so before any one says hey its the same thing as it is for straight people as it is for gays… think. Think hard about what that means. Belief as your heart tells you. But remember that Jesus of Nazareth, “whom the LDS church acknowledges as one of the god head and savior and head of the church”, taught to love and forgive time and time again. NO matter what. He taught compassion he taught empathy and unconditional love. Now that might not necessarily mean to accept homosexual “acts” in terms of LDS church dogma… But I do feel that maybe Mormons could be a bit more empathic… and maybe perhaps attempt to put themselves in the shoes of others..

    Oh and one more thing… If It is against G-d’s eternal plan that people should be Male and Female and completely straight?… then why are Hermaphrodites born?… Just a thought.

  9. Tania says:

    The Bible, Old and New Testament talks of homosexuality being an abominationin to God. It’s sad to see such hate and animosity directed toward an Apostle of God when all he is doing is expressing God’s will to man on earth. In the New Tesatment in Jude 1:7 it talks of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrha and “going after strange flesh”. Strange flesh is homosexuality. Continuing in verse 8 it says: “Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion and speak evil of dignities.” 2 Peter 2:10 also. I’d be careful of what you say for you will be accountable to God for what you say and do, as will I will and everyone else. Look in the Bible, you’ll find several references against it.

    The words spoken by President Boyd K Packer ARE TRUE. He was simply and plainly stating what has been prophesied through the ages. He talked of the importance of marriage, being central to God’s plan. We are all about Eternal Families. How can you have a family if you are a homosexual? It is not possible. Agency is precious and satan does not have the power to take that from us, it is our choice to GIVE it to him. He talked of pornography, being a great plague.

    2 Nephi 16:2, The wicked or “the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.”

    We are all accountable to God for our own actions. President Packer’s talk was not full of hate as has been stated, but he frankly talked about the truth and reality of satan and his evil cunning that will destroy us if we let it. He talked of help that was available to those struggling with these vices. Satan wants you to believe that you were “born that way” by so doing he will blind you and lead you down a path of missery and woe. Do not fall for his lies, You said you wouldn’t choose to be “gay” so My question to you is would you choose NOT TO BE GAY? Get the help you need, you are strong and can overcome it if you want to. Jesus Christ has suffered for you, let Him help you overcome the trials you have been given. He will not give you ANY temptation that you cannot overcome and with all temptation He will provide a way for you or me or any of us to escape.

    I sustain President Boyd K Packer as a prophet, seer and revelator and support him in his plea to overcome evil and not let satan decieve us. Just imagine your meeting with the Savior, YES, HE LOVES YOU, but NO UNCLEAN THING CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD! As I see it, President Packer is warning us of the evils of our day and pleading with us NOT to be decieved by satan but to rise above the temptations we all face, no matter what they may be and overcome the world and the wickedness that will keep us from returning to our Heavenly Father.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      This may sound rude, but you’re a total fool. The Bible says nothing about homosexuality, neither does Jesus, neither does the Book of Mormon, neither does the Doctrine and Covenants, nor the Pearl of Great Price. I’ll say it again NO WHERE IS IT TO BE FOUND.
      However, the Bible does say:
      1) you can sell your daughter to slavery
      2) you can stone to DEATH people who work on the sabbath
      3) you can own slaves and can BEAT slaves
      4) you can NOT eat shellfish
      5) you can NOT wear clothes made from blends of fibers
      6) that women should sit in the back of the church with their heads covered and NOT SPEAK.
      The Doctrine and Covenants says that you, as a Mormon woman, MUST be a plural wife. So, how many sister wives do you have?
      The Bible is not a multiple choice test that you can choose from. Sorry. You’re wrong and Packer is wrong.
      I don’t need to “get help.” You know why, because there is nothing wrong with me.
      “Satan” doesn’t want me to believe I “was born that way.” I WAS born that way and the science proves it.
      Being gay is not a choice, however, being Mormon is.
      Aren’t we all “unclean” and unworthy to enter the kingdom of God? Isn’t that why we need a Savior? Cast the beam out of your own eye first, honey.

  10. Justin says:

    Seth it sounds like you need to educate yourself a little more about the bible. Here is a few scriptures that talk about homosexuality.

    Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Lev 18: 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.” Mormon doctrine openly proclaims there are many errors in the Bible. How do you know the translation you have shown me is accurate? Have you read the original version? Do you know what the original version was even written in? Do you know who wrote it? Do you know who translated it?
      If that is the ONLY instance then that is a weak argument. You have failed to address the other points of the Bible that you don’t follow. why do you get to pick and choose? What standard are you using?
      And why does “The most correct book” (i.e. the Book of Mormon) make no mention of it?

    • Seth Anderson says:

      What about Lev 20: 9- “for everyone that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.”
      Lev 11: 10- if you have ever eaten shellfish you have committed an abomination.
      Deut 23:1- if your penis or testicles are missing, you can’t go to church.
      Levi 19:19- I hope you don’t wear any blended fabrics, it’s displeasing to your god.
      Since you’re such a Bible expert, perhaps you can explain to me why Lot impregnated his daughters. Are you implying that incest is OK because it’s in the Bible?

  11. Justin says:

    You also pick and choose what you want to believe so that you can justify your actions.

    People cannot say they were born this way, therefore, they have no control over being homosexual otherwise where is the free agency to choose their own behavior and actions? I’m not against people being gay. I don’t hate them.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      I WAS born gay. How dare you try to tell me or anyone else that YOU know better that I do about myself.
      All the science, even research coming out of BYU says that people are born gay. (Go to and listen to the show with Bill Bradshaw, a professor at BYU, former mission president, active church member.) He’s a scientist, you’re not.
      The Mormon Church is run by out of touch, old men who do hate gays. Packer has long been vocal and hateful. The Miracle of Forgiveness is hateful and Kimball even said later in his life that we was wrong in the things he wrote.
      Mormons hate gays and they hate the children of gay parents. That’s why Mormons donated money to tear apart families and marriages in California. That’s why Utah has the highest teen suicide rate in the country, most of them gay kids.
      Finally, you didn’t answer any of my questions as to why you think the Old Testament is a valid moral authority, even thought it is filled with such awful ugliness.
      I actually like this talk because it shows clearly how much the Mormon Church hates gays. At least the bigotry and hatred is out in full sunlight and we can call it exactly what it is.

    • Justin says:

      Seth, you claim that you were born gay but have you been tested to find out that you were born gay?

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Don’t need to be tested. I’m sexually attracted to men. Not women. I’ve always been attracted to men. Talk to Brother Bill Bradshaw at BYU. He has some good scientific evidence for you.

    • Justin says:

      I’m a lesbian trapped inside a man’s body because I love women, but I cannot act on my thoughts or I will have sinned.

    • Justin says:

      I don’t believe that because you like men then you are born GAY. I think you developed these likes and interest as you grew up in life. Being Gay isn’t a sickness or a disease. That Professor hasn’t confirmed his findings to be true according to him. Many other scientists also do not believe that people are born Gay.

  12. Justin says:

    Seth, with all do repect, can child molestors also say they were born with an attraction towards children and no matter how much they tried to fit into society then that little voice in their head told them it wasn’t right and only little children could satisfy their needs?

    We are learning a lot through studying embryonic human development, but I doubt that some humans are born with same-sex attractions because it would go against the laws of nature.

    There is no purpose for homosexual human genes in the laws of nature. Offspring are only created by male and females through Meiosis unless your a prokaryotic organism that produces offspring by asexual reproduction usually by the way of binary fission.

    most scientists state that the current evidence of people being born gay is insufficient and that firm conclusions must await many additional scientific studies.

    I’m not claiming that I know more than scientists, but common sense tells me that homosexual genes wouldn’t serve a purpose

    • Seth Anderson says:

      How do you go from healthy, committed gay relationships to child molesters? There are no victims in gay relationships. And you are failing to recognize that most child molesters are straight.
      Child molestation and homosexuality have nothing in common. Stop trying to conflate the two.

      There are many instances of homosexual activity in all mammals. (Dolphins for example.) In many species the gay members care for the younger ones when their parents abandon them or neglect them, thus helping the species survive.

      True, if every person born from this point on was gay, the human race would cease to exist BUT here’s the kicker, the same thing would happen if every person born from this point on was female. But it wouldn’t make being female wrong, and furthermore it won’t happen. Natural selection is way too smart. Who are you to say you understand millions of years of human evolution and that being gay is wrong? It’s existed since the beginning of recorded time.

  13. Justin says:

    Well you can choose to live the way you choose. The LDS Church has said that homosexuality is wrong because it goes against the plan of God. One day you will stand before God like I will, and we will be judged for our good and bad deeds upon this earth.

  14. Tara says:

    Justin, if I came to you and said my book, The Book of Satan, says we should sacrifice our neighbors wives on the third Tuesday of every month, would that mean it was the absolute and right thing to do? If I believe in it, does that mean you have to believe in it and follow what it says? Of course not. Same goes for your bible. It is simply a book that people read, and if other people do not believe in your book, it is not your place to force them to do so, or to make laws which reflect the teachings in YOUR book. America is founded on religious freedom, and while I can appreciate your beliefs, I cannot respect the fact that you think you, or your church, have the right to destroy the lives of people you don’t even know.

    Being gay has nothing to do with family. I’m sure you know tons of kids, like me, whose parents are straight and divorced and now I have two sets of holidays every year. Guess what? Being straight didn’t save the family. However, my friend Laura’s mom married a man, had two kids, divorced him and married a woman. They have been happily married for 19 years now, produced two healthy, vibrant individuals whose contribution to society is immeasurable. I fail to see how having two loving parents is a failure of a family.

  15. Justin says:

    Also, Seth, if there was a cure then would you take it?

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Of course not. There is nothing to cure. Who are you to say that gay people need to be fixed? That’s offensive. Should we invent a cure for left-handedness? For red hair?

  16. Tara says:

    Also Justin, the LDS church says many things. And then changes its mind a few years later. In the 70s, your church did not allow black men to hold the priesthood. Guess who looks like the fool now? That’s right, your church, who had to eat their words after calling African Americans a “lower race.” This will happen with the gay community too. Once the federal laws reflect the truth – that justice and equality are not dependent on your church – your church will have to eat their words again. It may take 30 years, but it will happen.

    I won’t stand before your god. So far, only 13 million of you will, less than 1/3 of the population of the State of California. It’s a shame you all think you’re the only ones who know truth.

  17. Tara says:

    Justin if there was a cure for being a brainwashed hatemonger, would you take it?

  18. Justin says:

    Tara why do you label me as a brainwashed hatemonger only because my opinion differs from yours? Why do gays always play the hate card when people disagree with them?

  19. Justin says:

    Blacks holding the Priesthood and Homosexuality are totally different issue. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. It’s not a sin to be black. I don’t know exactly why blacks weren’t allowed to have the priesthood at the time, but I’m not God. Homosexuality is a sin and God has made it plain and simple.

    The LDS church will never accept homosexuality even if there is a lot of pressure from society. God is the only one that determines which things are acceptable in a society and which things aren’t. It doesn’t really matter what a society thinks, but it matters what God thinks. If society doesn’t follow what God has outlined then that society is always destoyed as history has shown.

    Homosexuality is a sin like fornication or adultry. God will never change his mind on adultry either even if society thinks it’s wonderful. Society needs to learn to follow his teachings because he is God and God is incharge of everything.

    Society isn’t smarter than God.

    Society will never be above God and society doesn’t determine what God should accept. God said “Marriage is between and man and woman.” He also commanded MAN that he should multiple and replenish the earth. Homosexuality is a sin and it goes against the laws of nature that God has created.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      “The LDS church will never accept homosexuality even if there is a lot of pressure from society”
      Brigham young said the same thing about slavery and blacks. He also said polygamy would never go away and if it did, it would be a sure sign the church was an apostate church.
      Brigham Young, the Prophet, said that.
      Was he lying?

  20. Tara says:

    Justin, here’s the deal. Not everyone IS mormon or HAS TO BE mormon or HAS TO LIVE BY the mormon doctrines. If you don’t agree with homosexuality, then don’t be homosexual.

    Hate stems from the attempt to take civil rights away from other people, people you don’t like, people you’re afraid of, people you think you are better than.

    Live how you want; I will respectfully allow you. Now allow me the same courtesy. The same legal protections under the Constitution. The same rights afforded to other people. The same American experience that other people have. It is NOT your place to vote to take rights away from other people, even people you don’t like.

  21. Tara says:

    Actually Justin, I invite you to study the teachings of your church. Being black was, in fact, a sin. It was punishment for not taking sides during the war in heaven. It was the mark of cain. Your prophets stood up and proclaimed that black people were not worthy of the priesthood simply for being black. It’s kind of convenient though to say it was god’s choice, not your leaders. When your church has to issue a public statement (in a few years) retracting all of the hate they spout now, it will be easy to say it was god’s choice and who knows why he does what he does. god also made people who are gay. and made people who are child molesters. and made people who rape and murder and steal and do terrible things.

    Living in a committed, loving relationship with another person who happens to have the same biological genitalia as you does NOT make you a murderer or a rapist or a child molester or a thief. The mormon church has taught you to believe that it does, and that Justin, is the real tragedy.

  22. Justin says:

    Tara, you have all the civil rights that I have. You don’t need to redefine marriage. Government needs to get out of marriage and then everyone can have civil unions. People can get marriage in their church if they wish.

    • Rebeckah says:

      Justin, your church spent quite a lot of money in my state of Washington in an attempt to deny homosexuals and the elderly a legal right to form civil unions (not marriage). Please don’t pretend that the Mormon Church has no issue with homosexuals having civil unions — it’s a flat out lie.

      Furthermore, the cowards in your church then tried to keep their names as donors from being part of the public record — as our campaign laws demand.

      I find a lot of hate, hypocrisy and lies flow from the Mormon Church.

  23. Tara says:

    And if my church allows gay marriages? and will perform them? Will you vote to take that away from my church? Because then this becomes an issue of religious freedom and not homosexuality. And if you want your church protected by the freedom of religion, I want my church protected as well. Even if we want to dance naked under the full moon and marry men to men and women to women. You and I, Justin, and our families and friends, we either ALL get civil unions or we ALL get marriage. That’s equality. Do you support equality? Or do you support the idea of Separate but Equal, because that didn’t work before and it will not work again.

  24. Justin says:

    If your church allows Gay marriage then it would be fine, but churches should never be forced to perform gay marriages. I would be against that. Yes, everyone should be able to get civil union instead of calling it marriage like we have now. If people want marriage then they can go talk to their church and get married in their church.

    • Juli says:

      Justin, gays and lesbians are seeking CIVIL marriage. The government will NEVER require any religion to perform a marriage that doesn’t suit the tenets of their faith. This is how it works: you go to the state and get a marriage license. You can then have a marriage ceremony performed by anyone authorized to perform them. ONLY judges and justices of the peace are REQUIRED to perform marriages to anyone who asks. Churches MAY perform marriages at their discretion but are NOT required to. You already know this is the law. No one without a temple recommend may enter the LDS temple. Catholics have the right to deny marriages to those who are divorced. Orthodox Jews have the right to deny marriages to those who aren’t Jewish. This will not change. You have swallowed the bait funded by your own church in the Prop 8 campaign spewing out the lie that churches will be required to perform same sex marriages. It isn’t true! They twisted the story of a case in New Jersey of a church that had a pavilion (not their chapel) that they rented out the public for all kinds of secular uses and got a tax break for it. A lesbian couple asked to rent the pavilion for their civil union ceremony (not even a marriage!). They did NOT ask the church to PERFORM the ceremony. They were refused the rental and the couple sued on grounds of discrimination and won. The church can’t have it both ways – you can rent to the public (ALL of the public) and get a tax break, or you can pay taxes like everyone else and choose who can use your facilities.

  25. Tara says:

    Thank you Justin. I expect you to vote down propositions in the future that attempt to prevent my church from practicing what we believe, including performing gay marriages, and in turn I will vote down propositions that threaten your church and things you believe in.

    And just to clarify: if you want to protect the freedom of religion, you must vote NOT to amend the Constitution to reflect the beliefs of *your* church.. In doing so, you may encroach on the beliefs of mine.

  26. Tara says:

    Your church can teach what it wants, despicable as it may be, but it’s time to focus on equality, compassion, kindness and love.

    For example, your church also teaches that people should obey the word of wisdom, but does not ridicule and belittle those who smoke or drink into feeling so shameful and alone that they kill themselves to escape the pain. I encourage you to step away from the dogma Justin and look at the reality. Jesus taught love. Jesus taught compassion. Jesus died so that other people don’t have to. The senseless suicides must stop and ending this “sam-sex attraction” rhetoric is the first step in doing so.

  27. Justin says:

    Also quit playing the hate card when someone disagrees with you. The LDS church loves everyone including Gay people. We are just against the gay acts. Boyd K Packer has the right to express his opinion without being labeled hateful. His talk was never meant to be hateful. The problem was that the gay community wanted to redefine marriage.

    Also the hate that you have for the LDS church won’t stop if someone who is gay wanted to get married in an LDS temple and they were told no because of the sins they are commiting because of being gay.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      No, the LDS Church hates gay people. That’s why in the 1970s the used electroshock therapy to “cure” them. Think about that, practicing Mormons hooked up perfectly healthy men to electrode, they put them all over the bodies of these men, including on their penis, and then electrocuted them. That is hate. That is force, that is violence. If it’s so good and of God, why did it cause so much pain and suffering?
      The Mormons hate gays. Make no mistake about it.

    • Justin says:

      “rolling my eyes” Sounds like you need help if you believe this. No the LDS church love the Gay community because they are children of God. The LDS church doesn’t like homosexual behavior.

  28. Tara says:

    At least I embrace the hate that I have towards your church. I would NEVER ask to be married in the temple, but I do DEMAND that I can be married. You are actually “redefining” marriage (AGAIN – heard of polygamy? and then the retraction of polygamy?) by attempting to add a clause to the Constitution. Gays simply want the same marriage everyone else has. The same. Not different. Not redefined. The same.

    Whether you embrace your hate or not, your church is hypocritical and judgmental. Gays want the same. Gays deserve the same. People who don’t believe in God deserve the same.

  29. Tania says:

    look in the Bible’s Topical Guide, there are several references to homosexuality: Genesis, Lev, Duet, Isaiah, Romans, 1 Cor, 1 Tim, Jude, 2 Nephi, Ezekiel, 2 Tim, 2 Peter. Look for yourself, you’ll find it. Only you won’t believe it because it doesn’t specifically say “homosexuality” you need the spirit to decern what the scriptures are saying.

    And Lot did not willing “impregnate” his daughters as you say. You should read the Bible. What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrha? HOMOSEXUALITY. And the Lord destroyed the city. Lots daughters were spared with him. Lot’s dauther’s thought they and their father were the only ones alive with Sodom and Gomorrha being destroyed (even Lot’s wife was turned to a pillar of salt because she turned back to her sin of homo. Lot’s daughters got him drunk and “lay with him; and he precieced not when they lay down nor when they arose” Lot’s daughters were married and their husbands were homosexuals and were destroyed. You have to pay attention to what you read or you’ll miss it. You have to read between the lines, so to speak.

    And the reason blacks could not hold the priesthood goes back to Adam and Eve and their children, when Cain killed his brother Able and had a curse placed upon him. That came from God not man, and when the time was right and God wanted ALL WORTHY MALE members of the Chruch to hold the Priesthood, he revealed it to His prophet. We have moderen day revelation, that is how it works.

    Why are you comparing humans to animals? That’s sick and wrong, And why would anybody believe a scientist or whatever over a Prophet of God or the Apostles of God. Hello! I guess because they are saying just what YOU WANT TO HEAR. The truth hurts and the guilty take it to be hard. You can justify your behavior all you want but it is still an abomination in the sight of God, it is wrong, it is wickedness, and it will never be embraced by those who truely love God and keep His commandments.

    And Sodom and Gomorrha is the first mention I know of that speaks of homosexuality not from the beginning of time. Those lusting after their “own flesh” homosexual is what that means.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      The Bible says the world was created 6,000 years ago. Yes six thousand. Have you ever seen dinosaur bones?
      The world is MUCH older than six thousand years when the fictitious Adam and Eve are said to have existed. Adam and Eve is a fable. They never existed.

    • Justin says:

      How do you know they never existed? Do you believe in Evolution? Do you even believe that there is a God from your statement?

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      because there is zero evidence. Stop making assertions that you can not back up. You are making a positive claim, the burden of proof is on you. I don’t need to “believe” in evolution, it is a firmly established fact.

    • Justin says:

      Well I don’t believe we came from monkeys. There is a lot of evidence that there is God. Maybe someday then zookeepers will find humans in cages. LOL jk

    • Justin says:

      BTW you have no proof that they didn’t exist so take a spoonful of your own advice.

    • Rebeckah says:

      Tania, practicing Jews (and Isaiah) indicate that the crime for which Sodom and Gomorrah were supposedly destroyed was inhospitality to strangers. It was NOT homosexuality — Christians misunderstood and mistranslated those verses based on their own biases.

      And the reason sensible people are willing to believe a scientist over a “prophet of God” is because scientists have verifiable evidence and Prophets have only their word for what they’re saying. Packer’s case — well he’s either senile or a hateful old man.

      But what am I saying? You’re one who follows a God who would threaten a man with death if he didn’t dishonor his vows with his wife and commit adultry with a 16 year old girl under his guardianship.

  30. Tara says:

    Tania, maybe lusting after “their own flesh” means members of the human race. Maybe we’re all doing it wrong anyway.

    And to say that prophets know more than scientists is a huge fallacy. Next time you get sick, or break your arm, or have a baby, would you rather go to A DOCTOR or your prophet?

    It’s a shame that you are so blinded by this thing called god. Like I said to Justin, I do not believe in your bible. It is NOT your place to FORCE me to do so, or to make laws based on YOUR beliefs. I believe in other books, and I would never pretend to force you to do what I want because it’s what I believe.

    Tania, if you don’t believe in homosexuality, don’t be homosexual. What will you do if you have a son or a daughter who is gay? Shun them? Cast them aside? Hope they kill themselves? I’d say that makes you the sinner. That makes YOU the Monster.

    • Jake says:

      I think people should stop trying to convince Tara she is wrong. There is no my god and your god. There is only one God of the universe and he says that homosexuality is wrong and a sin. This same God has also defined marriage as being between a man and a woman. You can fight as hard as you want against this truth, but it will remain a truth no matter how you believe it. Not believing in God does not change truth. You Tara are the blind one, unable and unwilling to accept God’s truth. One day God will remove all blindfolds and the ones that removed there blindfolds will not be shocked by what is revealed.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Why is Tara wrong for not believing in things for which there is no evidence? “God of the Universe” ? You mean Zeus? Or Ra? Or Allah? or Yahweh? Or The Great Spirit? Or Ganeesh? Why is YOUR god the one true god?
      I, like Tara, do not believe in things for which there is no evidence. You make a claim that you can’t back up. I have no blindfolds on. I see the world very clearly.

    • Jake says:

      Seth your thinking is very limited. I already said he is not MY god or Your god. There is only one God. Just because there is no evidence doesn’t make it not true. There was no evidence many years ago that smoking caused lung cancer. So was it not true back than, but true now? Also you have made many claims that you can not back up. Can you back up that there is no Adam and Eve? I may not be able to back up that God exists, but you can not back up that God doesn’t exist. So I guess we are in the same boat then.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      The difference is I’m not making any positive claims. You’re saying your version of whatever your god is exists and that Adam and Eve exist. Prove it. That’s a positive claim and the burden of proof is on you, not me. I reject it until proven otherwise, then I’ll change my mind.
      To all the gay kids who may be reading this, there is nothing wrong with you and you are beautiful and perfect the way you are. Your life is yours and you deserve to have love. Don’t let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

  31. Tania says:

    Tara, I’m not trying to force you or anyone else to believe in “my” Bible as you say. I specifically referenced the Bible because MOST people believe in it.

    I do not believe in the practice of homosexuality. I hope my children are never choose to be gay, it would break my heart, BUT, if they did, I WOULD LOVE THEM! I WOULD EMBRACE THEM! I WOULD INCLUDE THEM! I would NEVER shun them, cast them aside or hope that they would kill themselves!!! EVER!!! However, I would not try to change GOD’S COMMANDMENTS either! OR make up excuses for their behavior, or hope the Church’s stand would change because of public opinion.

    We are taught to love everyone, all people, even the sinner, but, we DO NOT love the sin. I’m sure you don’t believe it but it is true. The sinner and the sin can be and need to be seperated. I can be friends with people even if we don’t have the same beliefs, I know people that are gay and I am friendly and nice to them and talk with them, but I don’t have to do what they do or agree with their immoral behavior, but I still be friendly and nice to them.

    This “thing called god” as you call it, is a Man with flesh and bones as tangible as you and me, and He is your Heavenly Father as well as the entire human race, like it or not, believe it or not, it is true, and He loves you, He loves me, He loves ALL of His children, good or evil, sinners or saints, and that will never change!

    And by the way, we are all sinners and need to repent.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      Tania all you have offered this whole conversation is bald-faced assertions. Do you care to back up any of this? Your Bible is not a reliable source, feelings are not tools of cognition. I don’t believe in your fairy tales, so stop trying to force them on me. Believe whatever crazy thing you want, but keep it out of my civil government.
      Also, your child could never choose to be gay, they are born gay. Just like you were born straight.
      By the way, I just got an email from a reliable source that said the First Presidency is going to issue a statement that says they do NOT agree with Packers talk. I want you to think about that. The First Presidency doesn’t agree with what Packer said. Let that sink in. I’ll post the statement on my blog when they release it.

    • Jake says:

      Seth nobody is born gay, just ask any baby. Can you say a two year old is gay, or a 6 year old. Ask any little boy and most will tell you that girls are “yucky”. Same with very young girls when asked about boys. Sexuality is something that we as humans develop into. It certainly doesn’t start at birth. Just like with body parts sexual growth can also develop incorrectly.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Children are born gay. There is nothing incorrect about it.

    • Rebeckah says:

      Jake, my grandson was born with autism. We didn’t know it until he was three but that didn’t mean he wasn’t autistic at birth.

      Please take a look at Dr. William Bradshaw’s (a BYU professor) paper on the biological origin of homosexuality. Surely you can trust a BYU scientist?

    • Jake says:

      Also doesn’t mean he wasn’t autistic at birth. Your discovery could just have easily coincided with the sudden development of Autism. If you didn’t know it how can you be sure? Why would I ever trust a scientist, science is changing all the time and not all scientist agree on the subject. Any scientist can be just as easily proven wrong or right.

    • Rebeckah says:

      You trust scientists every day. You trust them when you see a doctor, take medicine, drive a car, use your computer and more.

      You simply choose not to trust them when it interferes with prejudices you hold dear to your heart.

      And I know my grandson was born autistic and did not “regress” into autism because there was no “regression”. I was concerned that my grandson was autistic when he was all of one year old because I knew the signs to look for – I have an adult cousin who is also autistic.

      You do not make yourself or your “God” look good by cherrypicking evidence you like to see and ignoring the mountain of evidence you don’t like to see. But that’s between you and your God, I just thought I’d mention it as a “heads up”.

  32. Tania says:

    Seth, You say you advocate a “civil government” yet you are not being civil. You have a double standard, you can express what you feel but others that oppose you can’t. I don’t believe that you are born gay, you do, that is a difference of oppinion. And if these so called scientists that say it’s genetic than why are some parents so distraught that their kids are gay?

    I’m done arguing with you, I am stating what I know to be true and I don’t need a scientist to prove it to me. Science says we came from Ape’s too and I know that is not even close to the truth!

    I don’t believe your so called “reliable source” either. The First Presidency may make a statement but it will not be to say they don’t agree with what President Packer said. So you think about that and let that sink in. Good-bye

    • drewmeister says:

      It’s only so-called science until you need a liver transplant.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      lol exactly!

    • Tara says:

      Or a brain transplant!

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      D&C 134:9 “we do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.”
      If you voted for or supported Prop 8, you are in direct violation of your own Mormon Doctrine.
      FYI, you can’t know those things to be true, because you can’t justify it.

    • Rebeckah says:

      “And if these so called scientists that say it’s genetic than why are some parents so distraught that their kids are gay?”

      Are you serious? Look up Non Sequitur Logical Fallacy. You CLEARLY didn’t pay attention at school.

      And then look up Dr. William Bradshaw’s paper on the biological origins of homosexuality. He’s a BYU professor with the same Apostles you have. Surely you can trust him?

      And then, get some tutoring or take a logic course. You have the sloppiest thinking I’ve ever seen.

      (Of course, these are only suggestions. Following them will enable you to grow as a thinking human being and benefit you greatly. However I am well aware that I have no grounds to “order” you to do anything — mores the pity…)

  33. Seth Anderson says:

    It’s important to remember that not ALL Mormons support the church in this matter. for example (I wrote a story for them as well.) and Mormons for Marriage are just a few of the online groups that support marriage equality and the people that are part of these groups are active Mormons.

    • Rebeckah says:

      It’s very nice of you to point that out, Seth. You show more grace than I would were I in your shoes. :)

  34. Jake says:

    Too many things here can not be proved or disproved through evidence. Lack of evidence can never be used as proof. We are all discussing things that are really beyond our current understanding. We can debate or speculate all day about things. But neither side really has the capability to 100% support our arguments. I include my self when I say we probably only have the capability to maybe support our arguments about 5% Until our understanding of the human mind improves we can do nothing but chase each other around in endless circles!

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      (I know the comments are threading weird, I’m trying to fix it now.)
      I agree somewhat with your statement. All the more reason to be loving and accepting and compassionate and warm and kind to people who are different.
      Using government to tear families apart, to cause harm to children and families is bad. To teach children they are “wrong” and “sinful” is evil.
      Talks like Packer’s are unnecessary and harmful. He’s a mean old man .

    • Rebeckah says:

      If God loves all “His” children then God has got to be pretty unhappy with the Mormon church. With depression and suicide at nationwide highs for Utah it’s pretty clear there isn’t a lot of loving being spread.

      Forget evidence — look at the people. Talk to some of the children who’ve been kicked out of their homes, talk to homosexuals and ask them how it felt for them growing up, LEARN about the humans and the pain before you open your mouth and say things that hurt other people.

      I’ve never known a homosexual who would have chosen their sexual orientation if they’d had a choice. I’ve known plenty who learned to accept themselves as they are but it was a long, hard and difficult journey for them.

      I don’t believe in God, but if there was one and if it were a God that loved all of its children then I’m pretty sure it would appreciate those children being treated with love, grace, compassion and tolerance — no matter how much you might dislike the choices they make for themselves.

      Packer did not preach love, grace, compassion or (most especially) tolerance — therefore he could not have possibly been speaking for a loving God.

  35. Jake says:

    He is gay and he is a mormon and he doesn’t feel the same way about the talk as others. If the intention was to be hateful, I’m sure this guy would have felt it.

  36. wine country girl says:

    Good grief! Mormons, come out of the Dark Ages and into the light of science and understanding. There simply is no debate that some men and women are born gay. The old, homophobic men who run the mormon church don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground. They are doddering old fools who get paid to hate others. If you want to live in a society that hates, just go somewhere else. I’m 55 years old, an ex-mormon and I live in a place where being gay is like being left-handed. It’s a non-issue in the real world. Step up or you’ll be left behind with your quaint hand-carts and peculiar ideas about marriage.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Yup. D&C 132 still stands and Mormon Doctrine still teaches that plural marriage is required for exaltation. The Mormons redefined marriage a long time ago. My great grandparents were polygamists. Wherever Mormons are getting this “ONE man ONE woman” idea is beyond me because even they don’t believe that. Mormon doctrine teaches ONE man and MANY women.

  37. J Seth Anderson says:

    The talk given at Conference and the official transcript are different. (No surprise there, the Church has been doing that for years.) The changes are significant.

    • Jake says:

      Talks for other things have been like that also. It isn’t a transcript, but the talk they had prepared before hand. Sometimes they don’t 100% follow what they have prepared. Also any member of the LDS church that thinks the talk was hateful does not truly understand the gospel. They do no understand god and his plan for his children. Also the LDS church in no way teaches that plural marriage is required for exaltation. Only that one must enter into the covenant of marriage. Yes plural marriage is still practiced by the LDS church in a way. A man may be sealed to another woman if his wife has passed away.

      Everything I’ve seen you post here tells me you have been deceived by Satan and believe the lies he spreads about this issue. His goal is the destroy the family and this is one way of doing it.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Jake, the Church DOES teach that Plural Marriage is required for exaltation.
      “The ONLY MEN WHO BECOME GODS, even the Sons of God, are those WHO ENTER INTO POLYGAMY.”(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269) Make sure to re-read D&C 132 as well.
      How are gay couples being in committed relationships destroying the family? You know that many gay couples raise children.
      You know what’s destroying the family, divorce.
      This talk was hateful and many, many active Mormons agree.

    • Jake says:

      Journal of discourses is in no way official doctrine. Many talks and such in there were transcribed by hand and contain many errors. Also if you are using D&C 132 then you do not understand the scriptures. Many, many active members may think the talk way hateful, but they are just as deceived as you are. God has already decreed that marriage is to be between man and woman only.

      People have always been made angry by the words of prophets. They will not always speak words that are popular, but they are true. You have already decided that what he said wasn’t right and I don’t think I have the capability to help you see otherwise. Maybe no one can. One day you will see that everything Boyd K. Packer said is true. I know what he said is true, and I understand that since I have no idea what it’s like to be attracted to the same gender so it is easy for me to see the truth in his words. For those who are attracted to the same gender, only a great amount of faith will allow them to see the truth in Packer’s words. I hope that you Seth, in this life time have enough faith to believe the truth. I am done here for good. I lack the skill to debate anything any further, I admit I am not good at this kind of thing. All I really have is my faith in god, and that is simply not good enough for the kind of debate going on here. I wish you luck and may you have a good life. Don’t bother replying because I won’t be coming back to read any further comments. I could spend too many hours in vain responding to everything everyone has to say.

  38. Jordan says:

    LOUD NOISES!!!!!!

  39. Seth Anderson says:

    Justin, you need a course in logic and evolution.
    First, evolution does not say we “came from monkeys.” If that’s what you think it says you have a lot to learn. It says we share a common ancestor with monkeys. That is true. human beings and chimpanzees have almost identical DNA.
    Second, I didn’t make any claims about god. I said I have no reason to believe there is one. You made positive claim that god exists. If you are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you. Just like if you said “You’ll never believe it but last night I was abducted by aliens!” And I would say, “You’re right I don’t believe you.”
    So advice to you, Logic 101 and Evolution 101 would be a good place for you to start learning.

  40. Rebeckah says:

    Seth, I love the picture of that yellow tree thing. It looks like something from a Dr. Seus book. Fun, whimsical and cheerful! :D

  41. Steve says:

    My biggest issue is with religion in general. Okay, folks want to believe in something, even “have faith” i.e. the belief in that which cannot be substantiated.

    Fine. Let ‘em. For themselves.

    The problem with religion is like any group or organization that thinks THEY know better than YOU. Without religion or a dependence on an illusion called faith, we’d look at things objectively and see we are all individuals, with free will.

    Religion shouldn’t determine morality. Morality is a personal and social issue, not a religious one. You can be a moral person and not be religious.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Exactly! Morality is code by which one lives that guides ones life. Morality has nothing to do with the Bible.

  42. Alan Howell says:

    I see a lot of hate coming from both sides of this issue. I don’t see ANY Christ-like love here, on either side. Ironic, I say.

    I am Mormon “in good standing”, and I do NOT hate gay people. DO NOT say I do. I have an uncle who is gay, and I love him just as much as my other relatives.

    Our Church leaders are not perfect. They make mistakes just like the rest of us. Sometimes members of the Church get the wrong idea on this point, and it causes problems in relations with those who are not members. It is important to remember that our Church leaders are human, and they are not always speaking as the Lord’s mouthpiece.

    Take blacks and the priesthood, which has been brought up several times here. My father and I have had extensive conversations on this, and we think that one of the big reasons that that occurred is that Brigham Young was a little bit racist. I mean, even Joseph Smith didn’t see any problems with it. Our Church leaders are human, and they are subject to human frailties and mistakes just like the rest of us. This does not decrease my faith in the least; it just means more responsibility is placed on me to discern (through the Holy Ghost) what is doctrine and what is not.

    Sorry if that was long-winded, but that just seems to me to be the heart of the issue here.

    Sorry if I sounded hateful to either side of the issue. Let me assure you that that was definitely not my intention, and I sincerely apologize if it sounded that way.

    • Tara says:

      Alan, can you not see the parallel between Brigham Young being racist enough to deny the blacks priesthood and the current church leaders who may be, for lack of a better word, homophobic enough to deny them civil rights?

      The point is that human beings are fallible and subject to their own biases, which color their decisions. The problem is that the Mormon church is claiming they are right no matter what they do, and teaching their members not to question, because their leaders are supposedly speaking straight from God. It’s not just the Mormon church either, but in this instance we are talking about Packer’s talk, so I’m confining my criticism to them.

      All any of us have said in this blog roll is this: believe what you want, but back off. Quit teaching children there is something wrong with them, something they should and need to change or risk being punished forever. Quit supporting laws which would impose your church’s beliefs on the rest of us. Quit trying to ridicule and diminish science because your Prophet didn’t confirm it first.

  43. Justin says:

    Tara, the church has a Constitutional right to speak against Gay marriage unless you don’t believe in the freedom of speech.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      Same sex couples in California had a Constitutional right to get married. Can’t you understand that??
      The church also has a Constitutional right to NOT marry certain people in its buildings. For example my straight Catholic friends would not be allowed to get married in the Tempe. My Mormon friends who drink coffee would not be allowed to get married in the temple. Where do they go to file their lawsuit? They can’t file any lawsuit or force the church to marry them. This would not change if gay marriage was legal.
      Do keep in mind the Church is walking a fine line: yes they have a right to say what they want, but by law they cannot interfere with elections. Churches don’t pay taxes, therefore can’t meddle in politics. The Mormon Church donated a LOT of money, not just the people, but the organization. Then they tried to lie about it when they were caught.
      The Constitution is not a one way street. It protects all people equally, not just the ones you like.

    • Tara says:

      And you do have the right to free speech, but not the right to make laws that take away MY civil rights. Either we ALL get the same rights (speech, religion and marriage included) or we ALL don’t. That’s the point you are missing.

      And don’t kid yourself. Members in the state of California had their bishops show up at the their house and tell them that based off their tithing and fast offerings, the church decided they could write a check for a certain amount to support Prop 8. Whether you wanted to or not, the church came a-knocking and made your mind up for you. THAT is illegal for a church to do.

  44. Justin says:

    I think you’re confusing gay rights with human rights. The constitution protects human rights NOT gay right. Gay rights would be more like “special rights.”

    The Church did nothing illegal. I could post many links that would prove my point. Also Church leaders told members to get involved, but they didn’t tell them how to vote. Many churches were against gay marriage in California. The Gay community vandalized Church which is illegal. A lot of gay people act like little spoiled brats when someone tells them NO.

    The Gay Parades don’t help you cause either when people dress like freaks in society. How is society ever going to take the gay community serious when people dress up like freaks in Gay parades. You should be condemning their behavior.

    • Tara says:

      And Justin, the truth comes out (pun intended). You hate the “freaks” and their “special rights.” This is not me playing the hate card either. You just outed yourself right here in public.

      Gay people are PEOPLE. Just like Black people are PEOPLE, just like left handed people are PEOPLE. Gays are just as human as the next person, so when you talk about Human Rights, Gay Rights are the same thing.

      Unless of course by ‘human’ you mean straight, white men. In which case, I can’t wait for our cause to prove you wrong again. Just like we did with Civil Rights for African Americans and just like we did with Suffrage for Women.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Justin, I will bet my life savings you have never been to a gay pride event. Expecting to be treated equally under the law is not a “special right.”
      Many churches were FOR gay marriage in California and actually performed gay marriages. Why do you think you can take away their constitutional right to practice their religion?
      I agree that there is that one parade each year in Utah where people dress like freaks and rub their life style choices into our faces. I can’t stand that Pioneer Day Parade. What parade did you think I was talking about?

  45. Alan Howell says:

    I realized that I kind of didn’t mention what I thought of the issue at hand. So here it is:

    I do not dispute science. There have been tests (and some, as has been mentioned, were done at BYU) that do show that there are biological differences that seem to give a person homosexual tendencies. That is fact, and it is indisputable.

    However (and this is to those who are members of the Church), I do believe that every member of a Church should be subject to the same standards. We in the Mormon Church believe in what’s called being chaste. If a gay person chooses to be unchaste, they should be dealt with in the same way a heterosexual person in the same situation would be dealt with. That’s only fair. Merely being gay is not grounds for excommunication.

    Unfortunately, there are members of the Church who engage in “gay bashing,” something that is totally against the doctrines of the Church. I think that Pres. Packer’s remark could easily be skewed that way, and I’m sure that Pres. Packer could have (and should have) chosen a more tactful way of speaking. That’s a matter of our leaders being human and making mistakes.

    • Tara says:

      Alan, thank you for a response that is not dripping with disdain. I respect very much what you have said.

      I would like to point out that the church teaches chastity until marriage, and then set out to deny marriage to gays and lesbians. If your church chooses not to perform or recognize gay marriage, no one would force you to do so. But it is unacceptable to deny a person that does not subscribe to your particular doctrine the right to marry the person they love, or to teach children that there is something wrong with them when there is not.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Alan, the Mormon Church doesn’t have the right to impose that standard on people who are not Mormon.
      Further the Church says that gays in the Church must remain chaste just like the other non-married people, but where is the Gay Young Adults ward? The gay young adult activities?
      The most conservative thing gay people ever asked for, the right to be married, was taken away from them largely in part because of the Mormon Church. It is inhumane to require celibacy before marriage, then DENY the right to marriage.
      Are you willing to live a celibate life? A life of sexual disfunction and loneliness? If not, what makes you think you can impose it on strangers?
      Mormons like to think of gays as big sissy sluttly drug addicts having sex in bathhouses. When you think of gays in these terms it’s easy to demonize and hate them. When in reality MOST gay people, like MOST straight people, are regular people who have regular jobs, pay regular taxes, have families, have children, etc.
      Honest, healthy relationships strengthen families and commitments.

    • Alan Howell says:

      I do not think of gays in stereotypical ways, first of all. As I said, I do have gay people in my family, and I consider myself fortunate. It gives me a perspective I’m grateful to have. In fact, I hate it when I see the stereotype that you mentioned talked about or portrayed in the media, because I know it’s not true. It’s the same thing when people talk about Mexicans in a racial slur (I have a lot of Mexican in my blood).

      I loathe prejudice of any kind, no matter the source, and unfortunately, it does exist in the Church, which is unfortunate. We should have a gay single adult ward and so on. It’s sad that we don’t.

      I wrote the section about my Church’s beliefs keeping in mind that it’s solely for the members of my Church. I believe others should be able to live in the way they choose. However, if one is a member of a Church, it follows naturally that they should follow the standards of the Church. I did not vote in the prop 8 decision as a result.

      Please understand that I am not against a legal partnership. That, to me, is as good as a marriage, privilege-wise. And, of course, as I said, if you are not a member of the Church, then I have no right to impose my standards on you.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Alan, you sound like a rational and thoughtful Mormon. I know there are many like you and I certainly appreciate your intelligent comments. Good for you for following your mind and not voting for Prop 8. You will be on the right side of history.
      Partnerships are not the same as marriage. Separate is not equal.

  46. Question says:

    Please tell me something: if you hate the Mormons so much and think they are so ridiculous, why do you keep associating yourself with them and the things they teach, talk about, believe, understand, etc?
    If you believe they think everything is all wrong, why do you really care what they believe and talk about at their conference? Are you seeking their approval or are you just trying to put up a fight where no one on either side is going to budge? (or that’s how it seems to me so far from all these comments)
    Also, if you think Mormons hate gays why is it okay for you to be so hateful towards the Mormons? If God loves us all equally- no matter what race, sexual orientation, challenges, gender, etc- can we not just show that same love and compassion towards each other?

    • Seth Anderson says:

      Fair question and I’ll give you an answer: you can’t take the Mormon out of me. It is my heritage, my roots, my family. And I like Mormon history.
      I do not accept Mormon theology. They have the freedom to believe whatever crazy things they want. I CARE because these beliefs and teachings are not benign. They cause harm to people. The church of my youth is actively working against a minority segment of the population. They worked to strip constitutional rights from law abiding, NON MORMON citizens.
      If you or anyone else thinks I’m going to sit back and be bullied by people who have a colorful past, you’re wrong.
      I don’t hate Mormons, I just hate the Mormon lifestyle.

  47. Question says:

    Thank you for your answer. I still don’t think I understand something- do you think it is just Mormons who don’t agree with gays? If so, I would suggest considering other religions and people who don’t agree with it (from studying many religious beliefs currently, I don’t think it’s just Mormons). If not, do you also hate those of other religious backgrounds who don’t accept your lifestyle?
    Would your passion towards hating the Mormon lifestyle be the same if you were raised a Jew or Christian (other than Mormons), or another religion? I don’t think it is just the “church of your youth” that is actively working against a minority. The way I understand it, Mormons are simply teaching marriage is between a man and a woman- and so are many other religions. And, it seems to me that some people who are not religious, also don’t agree with the gay lifestyle.
    Please know, I am just seeking to understand- not condemn or anything of the sort. Thank you for your help.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      First of all, I don’t hate anybody. I don’t define myself in negatives and I don’t let others define me that way either. Second, there is no such thing as a “gay lifestyle” and that phrase is meaningless and you should stop using it. It’s offensive. It makes people feel morally superior, yet they can never define what it means. (do you also use the phrase “black lifestyle” or “female lifestyle”? What would that mean?)
      I have a college degree (2 actually), I have a day job that I like, I write, I write for a magazine, I write on my blog, I’m writing a book, I play piano, I pay bills, I travel, I walk my dogs, I go to the gym, I hang out with friends, I volunteer, I’m involved with historic preservation, I read books, I’ve been in a committed relationship for over 5 years. Unless your life differs dramatically from this, is it fair to assume you too live a “gay lifestyle”? Now if you’re talking about my sex life, let’s be clear, that’s not a lifestyle, it’s part of my life, like I’m sure it is yours. My sex life is none of your business.
      Mormons are currently teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman. 120 years ago my polygamist great-grandfather would have been horrified to hear the church say such things. He had 5 wives in accordance with Church doctrine. It is still Church doctrine.
      At the dedication of the Manti temple on May 17, 1888, Wilford Woodruff proclaimed “we are not going to stop the practice of polygamy until the coming of the Son of Man.” (Journal of John Henry Smith.) Those were the words of the Prophet.
      You are free to believe whatever you want about gays. But your freedom ends when it imposes on others. Take away the religious bigotry and give me a good reason why gays shouldn’t be legally married in this country? Remember, gays can get married in Canada, Argentina, Mexico, Spain, and the Netherlands. The sky has not fallen, the world has not come to an end.
      There are many churches, like the MCC and here in Phoenix there is Casa de Christo. They are legally forbidden the right to practice their religion. They allow gay marriage in their churches, but the Mormon church has usurped the rights of others to live by the dictates of their own conscious. Mormon who believe in the validity of the Constitution should be offended by what their church has done.

  48. Drew says:

    Oh man. Seth, I really love how you pretended to be all unemotional and nice to people in the start, but your bitterness and anger and misinformed position became all too clear in no time at all. It’s a common issue with people who are relatively unfamiliar with how to discuss an issue like this.

    For the record, Bill Bradshaw’s “research” is faulty at best, and he has historically been disinvited to present at BYU. No idea why he was allowed to present anti-Christ information recently. There is zero (that’s ZERO) scientific evidence pointing to biological or genetic causes to homosexuality. Even the most adamant pro-gay scientists know that such a thing simply does not exist and as such, simply cannot be proven. People can and have overcome homosexuality, because it’s based entirely on thought and behavior patterns, and self-identification. Sorry, kid.

    Also, this talk exuded nothing but love, compassion and hope for those who struggle with unwanted tendencies of any kind, including same-sex attraction. To take away anything other than that is contrary to intention and the obvious.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Thanks for the laugh!
      Thanks for reading my blog too. Come back often! New readers are always welcome!

    • Tara says:

      Wow Drew, you’re a few fries short of a Happy Meal there, buddy. I recommend you read some books, get to know people outside of your ward (even outside of your stake!), learn a few things outside of your little bubble, before commenting on something you know nothing about.

    • Drew says:

      “Know nothing about,” huh? It’s called personal experience. I’ve seen this issue personally, from the inside and now the out–yes, you read that right. (For the record, I’ve also lived outside of my stake, outside of my state, outside of the country. Don’t presume to know anything about me before commenting on something you know nothing about.) There was nothing funny about my comment. In fact, re-reading it, everything written there is perfectly sound and can be backed up by the slightest bit of research (and your inability to refute any of my points proves that). The real joke is this blog.

      By the way, nice try going back to your fake, friendly self in your reply. Anyone can see your true colors, your hatred and intolerance, and how sadly misinformed you are. Best of luck to you. You’ll need it.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Oh Drew, you’re probably just an angry repressed gay Mormon man, jealous that other people live happy, fulfilling, sexual lives. Come out already. You’ll be much happier.

    • Drew says:

      Typical. And I hate to say it, but I don’t think you’re helping your cause in the least. You and your little friend resorted almost immediately to name-calling and ad hominem attacks, which are very transparent, counter-productive and indicate that you clearly have zero leg to stand on, and even less experience with discussing these sorts of issues.

      As for coming out, did you miss my previous comment? Been there, done that, happily married and satisfied in every way. It can happen to you too–that’s right, it’s entirely possible. Though I’m sure you think you’re happy living your “sexual life” (and weren’t you the one who said not to label a lifestyle?…) , one day perhaps you’ll make your way back, and we’ll gladly welcome you.

      And you call me angry and repressed? Check out the mirror, my friend. (Or your every comment and blogpost. Those are pretty revealing too.)

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      I’m hardly repressed. I’m out loud and proud. Sex is a natural, normal part of life and has nothing to do with a “lifestyle.” I’m sorry you seem to have so many issues with healthy sexual expression.
      You’re a bully, and I’m not afraid of you.

      Come out. Live who you really are. Sexual orientation can not be changed.

    • Drew says:

      Oh, but it can! To think otherwise is to deny the human spirit and the empowering and liberating ability to change (not to mention the literally awesome power of the Atonement).

      And being loud and proud doesn’t mean you can’t still be repressed. In fact, being ostensibly, vehemently and angrily vocal often indicates insecurity and even shame or guilt. Interesting.

      You still haven’t adequately refuted a single one of my comments (since you certainly cannot), and you continue to act defensive and bitter (since it’s your learned reaction). I’m sorry you’ve become a slave to a behavioral label. I don’t expect you to be afraid of me, and I’m not the bully here, as anyone can see. I lived as who I thought I was for quite some time, but now I finally am living as my true self. I’m just speaking out for those like me, whose existence you would belittle or even deny.

      Keep it up. Your true colors are continually being revealed.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      What is it with Mormons and their complete and utter social cluelessness? You walk into someone’s living room and start calling them names and telling them that they are stupid and then you are surprised when people fight back?! Then you play the victim card? Then you try to make me look like the bad guy with my “true colors” for standing up to you?

      No one made you come here. No one made you read a damn thing I wrote. No one is keeping you here.

      Leave me alone, dude! Go back to your repressed, closeted life. Any more comments you post will be removed. I’m under no obligation to provide you a forum to be an ass.

      (I know all about the joke that is NARTH )

  49. Chris Snedaker says:

    I appreciate and respect those who voice their opinions like you are doing here. However, suggesting that President Packer’s talk is hateful is unfounded. This man hates no one and his words are not hateful. Suggesting this is “hate” only fuels the fire for this disagreement. His words are powerful and very clear.

    The man is not hateful and is only teaching what he understands to be God’s will with the hope that it would help more people eventually find peace.

    You say you liked the talk in a way because it reveals the church’s true colors. The beliefs and the passion we have for them have been around for a while. But you’re right in that this draws the line even more clearly. The words were very bold. No one with these feelings is condemned. Only those who give in to them. Just like those who give in to a myriad of other feelings and decisions God abhors. Maybe He won’t take the feelings away from you. It undoubtedly would never be an easy thing to accomplish. Many deal with different challenges that last a lifetime.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      You fail to realize that not everyone believes in your version of your god. Keep it out of my life.
      Telling people they can change their sexual orientation IS hateful.
      The late Gordon B.Hinckley, a man people call a prophet, said when asked by Larry King if people were born gay: “I don’t know. I’m not an expert on these things. I don’t pretend to be an expert on these things.”
      Packer pretends a lot of thing. He’s a hateful, homophobic man. And he’s wrong.

  50. Chris Snedaker says:

    Having desires contrary to what God says is never easy to deal with and it is always, always easier to deny and ridicule those who promote the truth.

    Most church members are people who have desires contrary to the church’s teachings but continue to obey the teachings until one day (whether before or after death), they’ll find the desires are gone.

    Disbelieve if you want, but there is not hate here.

    • Tara says:

      Chris, there may not be “hate,” but there is ridicule, scorn and condescension. Like Seth said, believe what you want, but keep it out my life. Don’t make laws that take civil rights away from me; don’t teach kids there is something wrong with them; don’t challenge science you know nothing about.

      If the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley admitted that he did not pretend to be an expert on the matter, what makes you think that you or Packer are?

  51. David says:


    You (I can only assume) intentionally take a quote from Packer’s “To the Young Men Only” talk entirely out of context. You say that it is evidence that Packer advocates “physical violence against gays.” What a crock. The story is of a missionary whose MISSION companion presumably sexually assaulted him, and he responded by hitting the aggressor. That’s what you call advocating physical violence against gays?

    For the record, I think Packer’s conference comment was wrong, and (giving him the benefit of the doubt) I think he was eager to correct it when given the opportunity. It is clear from his own approved correction that he did not mean what he said. But hey, let’s not let facts get in the way of a good chance to smear the LDS church.

    • Seth Anderson says:

      Puh-leeze! Packer has been criticized for years for that talk. Have you never heard of it until today?
      Bottom line, this guy “floored” his companion, and Packer said that was a good thing to do. VIOLENCE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE.
      I don’t need to “smear” the Mormon Church. They do a fine job of that themselves. Your assault on my character for me having the spine and guts to stand up to the LDS Church speaks volumes about you.

    • David says:


      Nice of you to pretend that by objecting to you misquoting Packer, I was really “assault[ing] your character.” And then you beautifully respond by drawing a negative inference about me from my comment.

      The best you can come up with is “violence is never acceptable”?! That’s a whole lot different from your original point. Your original point is that Packer was advocating violence against gays. When I pointed out that you misrepresented what Packer had said, you responded by impugning my character.

      Please clarify for me one point on the “violence is never acceptable” scale.

      As I read the story from the talk (and feel free to offer your own spin if you think it’s necessary), a missionary was groped or fondled by his missionary companion in an unwanted fashion (read, sexually assaulted). That missionary then hit his companion. Once. Hard enough to make him fall to the ground. Because that was all it took to make the assaulter stop.

      Now as to the scale. Let’s say you have a daughter. Somebody touches her inappropriately. Is your advice to her to peaceably resist? Or do you tell her to punch, kick, bite, and gouge? Remember, Violence is never acceptable.

      See the problem? My guess is that you (just like Packer) would encourage your daughter to use any means necessary to stop the assault.

      And have you read Packer’s revised comment for publication? Apparently he, just like many of his detractors, disagreed with what he said. People misspeak all the time. Why can’t we give the guy the benefit of the doubt?

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      I’m not seeing the part about the missionary being groped. All I can find is “entice young men to join them in these immoral acts” which is not the same as being physically fondled or groped. About rape, Spencer Kimball said “It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Pg 196)
      Wow, it’s better for rape victims to die? How loving.
      I think it’s funny you point to Packers revised talk. I don’t give him the benefit of the doubt when he’s speaking at Conference, how can the guy who is next in line to be the “prophet” misspeak?
      A conference proof reader explained the process of how Conference Talks are submitted and approved:
      - GA submits a copy of the talk.
      - The talk is checked for accuracy (all quotes and references are cross-checked from the original book they are quoted from).
      - The talk is correlated. There is a list of terms that are no longer allowed such as “free agency” => “agency”, “plan of salvation” => “plan of happiness”, etc.
      - GA approves any changes that were made.
      - Talk is submitted to translators, etc.
      - GA gives talk over the pulpit.
      - A transcriber listens to the talk and writes-in any “pulpit changes” in red.
      - The pulpit changes are submitted to GA for approval.
      - GA reviews pulpit changes and decides what the final written copy should say.
      - Final GA-approved copy is sent to proof readers.
      - Proof readers compare final GA-approved changes and check for accuracy. They check grammar, spelling, references, “taboo word” list, etc.
      - Staff/Ensign Editors document any suggested changes.
      - Suggested changes are sent to GA for approval. GA has the right to reject/approve any suggestions.
      - Final text is submitted for printing.
      But Packer simply misspoke…. riiiiiight.

  52. David says:

    I think you’ll agree that a lot of the context is missing from the story about the missionary. I think that what I have put forth is a reasonable inference from what is said. I also think that calling the story “advocating violence against gays” is NOT a reasonable inference from the story. You have yet to disagree with me on this point. Am I correct in assuming you concede?

    And thank you for making my point for me as to Packer’s comments:

    - The pulpit changes are submitted to GA for approval.
    - GA reviews pulpit changes and decides what the final written copy should say.

    I remember hearing Packer make the comments during the morning session and instantly thinking to myself, “well that’s interesting. I certainly don’t agree with that. I wonder what the official release version is going to say.” I was relieved, yes RELIEVED to see that he abridged his comments, because absent such a change, I would have had a SERIOUS problem with his talk.

    So when given the opportunity to CHANGE the off-script portion of his talk, he DID. How is that hateful? How is it NOT a reasonable inference to assume he misspoke? Just because you say it’s unlikely?

    Sorry, I’m unconvinced, and I think you’re allowing your biases to blind you to what really happened.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      It is a reasonable inference. If the missionary had been under physical threat, why not include that in the retelling of the story? Why does Packer give no context for it? Watch the PBS interview with Packer where they asked him about this talk. (The rest of the talk is utter non-sense as well.)
      I don’t remember Joseph Smith making revisions to his sermons. Or Brigham Young. They said what they meant, and they meant what they said.
      I’m not the only one who said this talk was hateful. Many people have including many practicing Mormons. Further, the changes were not insignificant. These were not mere grammatical errors. Entire thoughts were removed.
      “It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and would do well that members of the church to read and follow it” was removed and replaced with “It is a guide that members of the Church would do well to read and to follow.”
      The Proclamation is religiously significant to Mormons. The Proclamation is NOT canonized scripture and it was important to clarify that point. While speaking in Conference, where people hold up his word as modern day scripture, he either doesn’t know the difference between a revelation and a guide, or is intentionally trying to mislead people.
      A leader unites. A leader inspires. Packer does neither.

  53. Justin says:

    Seth, I also think you blew Boyd K Packers talk out of proportion because if you read it more and more then you will see that the bulk of his talk is about pornography. He never was hateful towards homosexuals or heterosexuals because he addressed them both.

    Here is a Mormon who is Gay who even comments on it.

  54. Question says:

    So explain how you can say “Mormon Lifestyle” but I can’t say “Gay Lifestyle”?
    And how can you say that you are born gay? If we take religion and societies views out of this all that is left in my opinion is evolution. People can only keep living if a man and a woman get together and have sex. Two men cannot make a baby. Two women cannot make a baby.
    Maybe you need to listen to this talk again and see that he isn’t being hateful, you are simply looking for an excuse to justify your gay life so you choose to be offended.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      Because it was a joke to illustrate how stupid such a phrase like that is. Seems it was over your head….
      Why are you so fixated on the sexual relations of people you don’t even know? That says more about your issues with sex than anything else. Also don’t let it slip your mind that there are thousands of kids (thousands!) who are wards of the state because their parents either 1) gave them away 2) neglected them 3) abused them.
      But your point is well taken. However consider this: if every person born from this moment on was female, your same disaster story of human extinction would follow. It wouldn’t make being female “immoral.” But since natural selection is much smarter than you, you don’t need to worry about that.
      Homosexuality is found in every mammal species and has for as long as human beings have kept records. Get over it. It’s a fact.
      Which version of the talk should I listen to? The one spoken in conference or the edited version?
      I love how Mormons always blame the person who has the guts to stand up to the bigots in the church.

    • Tara says:

      Also, with overpopulation threatening the human race every day, maybe homosexuality is nature’s way of regulating the population. Why don’t we let these gay couples get married and adopt some of the kids that have been born of straight couples who couldn’t/didn’t take care of them. I’m sure those wards of the state would be way better off with two loving parents, be they 2 dads or 2 moms, instead of bouncing around between foster homes because your church doesn’t think gay parents are good enough to make a happy family.

      Plenty of kids are being raised by gay couples and turning out just fine. Happy, healthy, and wouldn’t you know it, straight.

  55. Nettie says:

    This talk was meant to bring those with your same inclination hope! You can truly be happy and live righteously. The priesthood of God has that kind of power. This talk meant so much to me for those like you who suffer and think you’re the only ones. There is hope! Even Boyd K Packer said, Why would the Lord make you that way? Well, he hasn’t and there is a way. He will not test you above that ye are able to overcome. I pray someday you will see the mercy and love that God & Jesus Christ have for you. You can overcome.

    • Tara says:

      I think you’re missing the point entirely. Seth is not “suffering” or “unhappy.” Your church needs to stop associating Gay with Ruined.

    • bitherwack says:

      What Packer is too stupid to realize is that God made gay people that way because being gay is perfectly OK. Or as one wise man said, “How many gays does God have to send here before we will understand that it is OK?”

  56. Question says:

    You can leave the church, but you can never leave it alone.

    Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of homosexuality.

    God will not be mocked.

    God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      “You can leave the church, but you can never leave it alone.”
      Like I’ve never heard that before. I DID leave the Church alone. The Church won’t leave ME alone.
      I have the integrity to stand up against the fraud.
      But go ahead and do whatever you need to do to feel morally superior to me. I’m not afraid of you.

    • Tara says:

      If you read through some of the earlier posts, different translations of the bible say that sodom and gomorrah was destroyed for not being hospitable to strangers. It just goes to prove the point that *your* god is one way, and someone else’s god is another way. So back off.

      Believe what you want, but stop trying to make laws that affect everyone, stop teaching children there is something wrong with them, and stop thinking you have some superior knowledge that other people don’t have.

  57. Schedule says:

    Maybe you should edit the page subject title Boyd K. Packer’s Hateful Conference Talk | Boy Meets Blog to more suited for your webpage you make. I enjoyed the post withal.

  58. Drew says:

    I’m assuming you haven’t allowed my post, since it’s still “awaiting moderation,” but I had just one more thing to say, even these few weeks later:

    You’re obviously under no obligation to display any kind of integrity, journalistic or otherwise. I mean, it IS your blog, and you are free to publish whatever you like on it, but remember that it is a blog, and as such invites comments from anyone and everyone, regardless of whether they agree with you or not. It makes sense you would resort to threats of silencing though, it’s a common thing to do for people whose views are challenged when they have no response.

    For the record, I have saved a copy of this entire exchange, since it’s such a wonderful and typical example of this kind of discussion. I may or may not include it in my forthcoming book. Of course, I’ll change your name, and surely let you know when it’s published.

    (I would have emailed you this, but I couldn’t be bothered to go hunting for your email address.)

  59. Charles says:

    I have personally known two men who left the Church to follow their natural impulses for a number of years, then returned and were later married in the temple. One of them was a close friend with whom I stayed in contact during his 14 years away. He testified to me that he had changed his sexual orientation through self-denial and God’s help. Sadly, he contracted HIV during those 14 years and later died of AIDS while serving on the High Council. HIs widow was left to finish a book of his experiences, yet to be published. Both men said they had those feelings for as long as they could remember, but could not say if they were born that way. My heart goes out to anyone with this challenge. Yet, no one is exempt from challenges in this life.

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      But it’s not a challenge. There is nothing wrong with being gay. It’s who you are, and while some people may be able to temporarily change their behavior, it doesn’t change orientation.
      My dad’s teachers used to hit him on the had with a ruler because he was left handed. He learned how to use his right hand, but his impulse, is natural inclination was to use his left hand. (Left handedness is rare. Most people are right handed. But that does not make being left handed wrong.)
      There is nothing wrong with being gay. Jesus never said a thing about it. Neither did Joseph Smith. Neither does the Book of Mormon. Nor the Doctrine & Covenants.
      Nothing good came from Packers talk. Nothing good came from Prop 8. Both resulted in suffering and heartache and yes, even death, for many people.
      It is better to live open, and honest and as your true self instead of in shadows and self denial.
      There is nothing wrong with being gay. If you are gay, you are gay. Nothing will change it and nothing needs to because there is nothing wrong with you.

  60. me says:

    really?! if what you advocate is true, then serial killers are born that way and they have not choice. maybe we should just let them kill. think about it, you are what you continually let your thoughts dwell upon. I’m neither put off or encouraged by this talk. but, i listened to it and heard none of there inferences that you argue. i’ve been troubled with addiction my entire life and to say “I was born that way” is simply blaming someone else for my actions. buck up and take responsibility for your own actions. I’m not advocating any sort of judgment, but damn, who are you to judge?!

    • J Seth Anderson says:

      I’m sorry your thinking is so screwed up that you can’t even see the many logical errors in your statement.
      First of all, serial killers have victims. They take from someone else what is not theirs to take. Gay relationships involve two consenting adults. No victim. Stop conflating thing that have nothing in common.
      Many in the church were put off by this talk. That’s why the church released a statement, that’s why they read a statement in Sacrament meeting telling people to stop writing letters to Salt Lake, and that’s why they edited the talk. (It’s not uncommon for the Church to edit talks. They have done it for decades.)
      Addiction has nothing to do with sexual identity. Again, STOP conflating things that have nothing in common.
      Utah has the highest rate of suicide among young men ages 15-24, that is what makes me the judge of this talk.
      It was hateful and mean and nothing good came from it.

    • Tara says:

      “Me,” I am truly empathetic to the fact that you struggle with addiction. However, being an addict has serious consequences, for you, your family, your body, and so forth. Being gay does not. We are granted the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness in this life. Someone else being gay does not threaten your right to those guarantees in any way. Serial killers and addicts are not in the same category as someone who is gay. Like being left handed (which by the way the Bible calls the hand of Satan), being gay is something that has no negative consequences to anyone else.

      Being gay is not a handicap, it is not a challenge. Like the first post, your friend turned from his sexuality by using “self-denial.” Do you think that’s healthy? Do you think that denying the parts of you that make you who you are will lead to a life of happiness and fulfillment? If you believe that, then I truly feel sorry for you. Trying to forget and deny the things that make you who you are are usually triggers for addiction, or recently, triggers for suicide, which I guess is true self-denial since you are denying yourself the right to life.

  61. Melvin says:

    Judge not that you be not judged. I judge him not.

  62. Melvin says:

    Seth Anderson, you are right. We are not ancestors from the monkey. God created the monkey similar to the man because God created animals and beasts and fowls and gave it to Adam. The black people are similar to monkey and have the same blood type of the monkeys. God study and compare the scriptures and go to the library. There are lost books such Enoch, the Dead Sea Scrolls and dedicate to study and compare as though you are going to school. You read the Bible. God has fitted to confound men in his wisdom. God may be laughing at you if you believed that we are ancestors of monkey. But, the funny thing, I have no monkey blood, or Indian blood. I am blood type A positive with no blood and plateletes. Imagine, no blood and platelets, and just only hematrocrite,hemoglobin, lymphocytes, and others. Okay. That’s why the doubts are there. God has confounded men wisdom and has done a wonder and a prestigious work. You all of you make God laugh even the scientists have made God laugh.

  63. Melvin says:

    Remember Seth Anderson,Aids is real. Just take care of yourself. God always love you and wants you the best and stay healthy. Aids is not a easy thing. Aids is cruel than what you cannot imagine.

  64. Melvin says:

    One thing I dislike of Elder Packer of his pamphlet. He advises and gave recipes to the internet how to stop to masturbate. It gives advices to yell and scream without stopping when you feel the desire to masturbate and imagine yourself as though you are seeing disgusting worms. This recipe is no good. I am not quite satisfied. Masturbation is not only for gays. Straight guys do also masturbation. This is the only thing I disagree with Elder Packer. I respect him as a son of God, who he is.

  65. Melvin says:

    Listen, Seth Anderson, In the revelation in chapter 14, verse 4, says,that only the 144,000 who have not touched women and have not defiled women are the only ones who have access to the Celestial Kingdom of God. Only Virgin men can access to the Kingdom of God, and the rest can’t. Why will the Mormons access to the Celestial kingdom. I pity them and understand because they are trying to serve God and are brothers and sisters who are seeking Jesus and love Him and want to be with him.Unfortunately, they will not go heaven and inherit the paradise. These saints if they will die, will sleep for a thousand of years, and then live in the terrestial kingdom. Because Jesus never and ever endorsed polygamy or something like this. It’s the people who wants the blessings because they make covenants. If they break covenants, they know what are the consequences. The consequences are, that they will be angels forever and ever, and only the 144,000 can have the eternal blessings. The bible does not say everyone can have exaltation. Only the 144,000 who have not touched women and have not defiled for they are virgins and follow the Lamb. The context is clear that the Bible says, the Mormons will not go heaven. They stay in terrestial kingdom living among the Jehovah Witnesses.

  66. Melvin says:

    Look it says, These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb, wherever He goes. These are redeemed from among men,being first-fruits, to God, and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the Throne of God. Revelation, chapter 14, verse 4-5. This is very complicate for me. I am struggling to find out to compare the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon. I am pretty dissapointed. Why the Bible contradicts the Doctrine and Covenants. The revelation is fearful expectation of God.

  67. Robert Burns says:

    I’d prescribe a long soak for the lot of you. Letting outside influences dictate the life you have means you have no life at all and are just searching for acceptance.
    If you have to be brought to happiness that happiness belongs to who brought you.

  68. Annonomys says:

    There are also lots of talks about managing your anger, addictions, gossiping, judging,ect ect. All of these things some people have stronger tendencies to act upon then others.The same goes for having gay tendencies. It is a challenge that some people are faced with the same way someone has a challenge to control their temper, to stay away from addictive substances or media. We all have trials that we need to over come, and the Lord is aware of all of us and our trials and will help us to over come anything we are faced with.

  69. Miriam says:

    Just discovered your blog. I love it. Stay strong, happy and independent! :) :)

  70. Gaytor says:

    So funny because when all is said and done elder packer is right and you are wrong. You being the gays who try and try to come up with some backing that supports your gay cause. Gay=sin homosexuality is immoral and wrong. Times will change but that principle will always stand true!g

    • J. Seth (I go by Seth) Anderson says:

      Oh, Mormons and your claims of absolutism. “[Fill in the blank] will never change!” and then it does. (Blacks and the priesthood, the temple ceremony, garments, the Book of Mormon, the Word of Wisdom, Adam/God, polygamy etc etc etc.) You and others like you would be wise to heed your own church’s 19th century creed: Mind your Own Business.

  71. Bryan says:

    I can see where you are coming from, but think on this: If you are a Christian, then you believe that we were made in the image and likeness of our father in heaven. If we were made in the likeness of our father in heaven, then that means we are not born gay. Nonetheless, some may acquire gay feelings at some point in their life. This is not a sin. But acting on them is. There are members of the Church, including some members of the Seventy, who are gay. But they realize that these feelings were not thrust upon them at the moment of birth, because God is not gay and we were all made in his image and likeness. So they simply fill themselves with the light of Christ and strive to live the way the Lord commands us to. And as a result, they have wives, kids, and are very happy. I challenge you to do the same. Boyd K. Packer is not a mean, judgmental man. He is simply straightforward. Acting upon homosexual feelings is a sin. And so are putting down gay people. But no, they are not feelings you are are born with, and therefore, it is their responsibility to do what needs to be done to live the way the Lord would have us live, regardless of our feelings.

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